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Subject: "Photos of hair growth in strip scar (Dr. A)" First topic | Last topic
Dr. SanSun Jul-31-05 12:38 PM
Member since Jul 23rd 2005
252 posts
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"Photos of hair growth in strip scar (Dr. A)"
Sun Jul-31-05 01:08 PM by Dr. San

  

          

History-
The following patient had a high forehead.
A plastic surgeon advised her to go for a excision of a strip of scalp just below the hairline to reduce the height of the forehead.

The patient got that strip excision performed in 2002.
As can be expected, the surgery left a visible linear scar right in front of the hairline and did nothing to lower the height of the forehead.
To further complicate matters, the patient's frontal hairline hair used to grow straight back. Therefore, the hairline hair could not be used to cover the strip scar.

In 2004, the patient contacted Dr.A for repair procedure.
The patient wanted the repair in 2 steps.
The first step was to go for FUSE graft transplant in the strip scar, mimicing the direction of the surrounding hair.

The patient's FUSE procedure was carried out in Oct 2004
The patient was satisfied with the growth and decided to fill in the remainder of the hairline areas in July 2006.

BEFORE



AFTER

Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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Replies to this topic
Subject Author Message Date ID
Another angle
Jul 31st 2005
1
Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
2
      RE: Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
3
           RE: Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
4
                RE: Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
5
                     RE: Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
6
                     RE: Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
7
                          RE: Some more photos
Jul 31st 2005
8
                          How many more
Aug 01st 2005
9
                               RE: How many more
Aug 01st 2005
10
                                    RE: How many more
Aug 01st 2005
11
                          RE: Some more photos
Aug 01st 2005
14
This time round
Aug 01st 2005
12
Donor area photos- donor sealing
Aug 01st 2005
13
      Not a fair heading for this thread
Aug 01st 2005
15
           RE: Not a fair heading for this thread
Aug 01st 2005
16
           RE: Not a fair heading for this thread
Aug 01st 2005
17
                RE: Not a fair heading for this thread
Aug 01st 2005
18
           Fue into scar pictures
Aug 01st 2005
19
I think she needs more FUEs
Aug 01st 2005
20
Scar Tissue Study..
Aug 01st 2005
21
      RE: Scar Tissue Study..
Aug 01st 2005
22
           OK, let me address all of these one at a time...
Aug 02nd 2005
23
           RE: OK, let me address all of these one at a time....
Aug 02nd 2005
24
                To Eric gomez
Aug 02nd 2005
26
                     Notanewbie and white dots
Aug 02nd 2005
27
                          Bhupinder..
Aug 02nd 2005
28
                               Notanewbie and proof
Aug 02nd 2005
29
                               Dr San, please read...
Aug 02nd 2005
30
                                    RE: Dr San, please read...
Aug 03rd 2005
36
                                    Wrong on many counts
Aug 03rd 2005
38
                                         RE: Wrong on many counts
Aug 03rd 2005
45
                               RE: Bhupinder..
Aug 03rd 2005
34
           RE: Scar Tissue Study..
Aug 03rd 2005
32
                RE: Scar Tissue Study..
Aug 03rd 2005
33
                     RE: Scar Tissue Study..
Aug 03rd 2005
35
RE: Photos of hair growth in strip scar (Dr. A)
Aug 02nd 2005
25
RE: Photos of hair growth in strip scar (Dr. A)
Aug 02nd 2005
31
      Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>
Aug 03rd 2005
37
           Bad
Aug 03rd 2005
39
           DHI
Aug 03rd 2005
40
           RE: Bad
Aug 03rd 2005
44
           RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>
Aug 03rd 2005
41
                RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>
Aug 03rd 2005
42
                     RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>
Aug 03rd 2005
43
                          RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>
Aug 04th 2005
46
                               I agree..
Aug 04th 2005
47
                                    laughable!!!
Aug 05th 2005
48
                                         RE: laughable!!!
Aug 05th 2005
49
                                         My photos are from far away?
Aug 05th 2005
51
                                         Stop Laughing, nothing funny
Aug 05th 2005
50
                                              YOO HOO DJ, where are you?
Aug 06th 2005
52
                                                   No twisting done .......
Aug 07th 2005
53
                                                        ADP my response to you..
Aug 07th 2005
54
                                                             My response to you..
Aug 11th 2005
55
                                                                  RE: My response to you..
Aug 11th 2005
56

Dr. SanSun Jul-31-05 01:07 PM
Member since Jul 23rd 2005
252 posts
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#1. "Another angle"
In response to Reply # 0
Sun Jul-31-05 01:07 PM by Dr. San

  

          

Photos from another angle
A point worth noting is that the angle at which the hair were transplanted is same as the patients own hair in nearby area.

Dr.A beleives that duplicating the angles of the surrounding hair growth is very important for naturalness as well as to prevent any inadvertant hair root transection.

BEFORE


AFTER

Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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Dr. SanSun Jul-31-05 02:00 PM
Member since Jul 23rd 2005
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#2. "Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 1


  

          

Following is the photo of the recipient scar area 8 months after FUSE grafts transplant.

Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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parableSun Jul-31-05 02:24 PM
Member since Oct 14th 2003
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#3. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 2


          

Thanks for the photo's...
May I ask how many grafts were planted?...
Also not to be crude but I personally do not like the placement of the Fu's! It looks average at best.
I think Dr. Arvind need's a little more schooling when it comes to the placement of hairs.. Maybe get some tips from Hasson/Alvi/Cole.

  

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Dr. SanSun Jul-31-05 03:38 PM
Member since Jul 23rd 2005
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#4. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 3


  

          

>Thanks for the photo's...
>May I ask how many grafts were planted?...
>Also not to be crude but I personally do not like the
>placement of the Fu's! It looks average at best.
>I think Dr. Arvind need's a little more schooling when it
>comes to the placement of hairs.. Maybe get some tips from
>Hasson/Alvi/Cole.

I do disagree with your opinion.

Maybe you missed reading or observing in the BEFORE photos that the hair of the patient are actually pointing backwards in the hairline.

This was a patient who wanted to get hair grafted only in a thin but very disfiguring scar at a angle that resembled the hair above.

The doctor did not have the luxury of lots of grafts or the choice to be able to place them at the preferred angulations.
Only 200 FUSE grafts to try to camoflage the scar. And those too had to be angled backwards to resemble the remaining hair growth.
That makes it all the more difficult to prevent the white scar tissue from shining through.

Of course, 800 grafts, in a person with the original hair pointing helpfully forwards would have given even better results.
But one has to place each graft to make it count.

Maybe you can point to a similar repair, with similar number of grafts and hair angles, with one of the other doctors, to help me understand how we could improve!

Besides, the purpose of this thread was to satisfy a long standing demand to show photos of growth of FUSE grafts in strip scars.


Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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parableSun Jul-31-05 06:12 PM
Member since Oct 14th 2003
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#5. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 4
Sun Jul-31-05 06:16 PM by parable

          

Once again I appreciate the fact that you showed photos and thankyou for clarifying how many grafts your clinic planted. It makes it easier to understand.

With that said I still don't think it looks cosmetically acceptable, but I guess it is better than having a scar gleaming through. Hopefully she is happy with it and will finish of her h.t.plant journey soon!

Now, when posters are talking about scar tissue I think the majority are more or less referring to strip scars in the donor area. My understanding is this type of brow lift isn't as invasive as a strip scar and therefore doesn't really help in determining whether grafts have a good survival rate in the donor strip area.

  

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SchillerSun Jul-31-05 09:14 PM
Member since Jul 13th 2004
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#6. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 5


          

For 200 grafts, this looks very good to me. It appears as if the peak of her hairline has thinned over time. Such a look helps to mask the scarred look a lot.

I'm not sure how much of this area is scarred, so it isn't clear which hair are growing directly in the scar itself. Maybe the doctor could outline this area.

Thanks for the pics.

Schiller

  

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SamsonSun Jul-31-05 09:15 PM
Member since Jan 27th 2003
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#7. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 5


          

I agree with Parable's sentiment

The number of grafts advised agreed could not have been enough

The picture are of course appreciated, but this patient should have been advised of the limitation in creating a totally natural result with so few grafts

The primary objective of hiding the scar has been improved but its not a home run and needs further work

please take this a constructive criticism as i think thats what Parable was giving and we all love to see different types of work and results.


  

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Mr FrodoSun Jul-31-05 09:37 PM
Member since Nov 23rd 2003
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#8. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

Agreed. The grafts did hide the scar but she can use another 300 grafts at least.

  

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ericgomesMon Aug-01-05 04:30 AM
Member since Jun 01st 2004
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#9. "How many more"
In response to Reply # 8


  

          

>Agreed. The grafts did hide the scar but she can use another
>300 grafts at least.

I agree too. For just 200 grafts the difference in being able to turn attention away from the scar is very good.
In fact, I never knew that just 200 grafts can do so much.

Dr. San, how many grafts did the patient go for in her 2nd fue.
Was the reason to go in stages of the patient or the doctor?
I think a patient who has once been betrayed by a doctor and gifted a scar right in front, on the forehead, may not go for an all out home run HT the first time round in her repair. It takes time and many small steps to test the HT waters before taking the big plunge. I remember having gone for a small session before going through with the all out repair HT.

  

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ixanMon Aug-01-05 06:11 AM
Member since Jan 11th 2005
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#10. "RE: How many more"
In response to Reply # 9


          

It's pretty good for 200 grafts, I can't see the scar any more. A little more density would have been perfect. That is easy to fix anyway, no big deal adding more grafts.

  

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69stingMon Aug-01-05 06:39 AM
Member since Aug 05th 2003
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#11. "RE: How many more"
In response to Reply # 10


  

          

Looks very good to me!!! she can always add more grafts, now that she knows how the grafts grow and look natural.

  

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Dr. SanMon Aug-01-05 09:02 AM
Member since Jul 23rd 2005
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#14. "RE: Some more photos"
In response to Reply # 7


  

          

>I agree with Parable's sentiment
>
>The number of grafts advised agreed could not have been
>enough

>The picture are of course appreciated, but this patient should
>have been advised of the limitation in creating a totally
>natural result with so few grafts

-------------------
The patient was advised more grafts as I said at the start but wanted to go in steps. We have to respect the patient's choice.
-------------------


>The primary objective of hiding the scar has been improved but
>its not a home run and needs further work

-----------------------
You are right. This was not intended to be a home run.
----------------------

>please take this a constructive criticism as i think thats
>what Parable was giving and we all love to see different types
>of work and results.
>
------------------------
I hope my earlier replies did not sound as if I am not taking the criticism in good spirits.
There is always scope for improvement.

Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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Dr. SanMon Aug-01-05 08:46 AM
Member since Jul 23rd 2005
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#12. "This time round"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

The patient went in for 400 FUSE grafts this time round. These were placed immediately behind the previous grafts to thicken the area.

Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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Dr. SanMon Aug-01-05 08:52 AM
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#13. "Donor area photos- donor sealing"
In response to Reply # 12
Mon Aug-01-05 08:54 AM by Dr. San

  

          

Following is the photo of the donor area now in July 05.
Donor sealing was performed after extractions. Donor sealing protocol ensured that there are no white dots even after shaving the area, inspite of the fact that the patient has colored skin.

Best regards,
Dr. Sangay C.B.
I have trained and work at Dr. A's clinic as a hair restoration surgeon.
However, my opinions and advise need not be shared by Dr. A.
www.fusehair.com
hairadvise101@yahoo.com

  

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notanewbieMon Aug-01-05 03:35 PM
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#15. "Not a fair heading for this thread"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I have been researching liniar scar grafting for over 6 years now and the heading of your thread is misleading.

All scars respond to grafting differently but, unfortunately for many of us, liniar scars created IN THE BACK OF THE SCALP BY STRIP SURGERY are the most difficult to graft.

The front scalp differs greatly from the back of the scalp. The vascularity (blood flow) is different. The range of movement is different. The smoothness of the skull at the forehead differs from the ridge at the back of the skull. The type of scar that is formed at the forehead is rarely hypertrophic, thick, dense or keloid, it is generally white and flat, something few HT stip scars are when doen on the back of the scalp. These and many other factors contribute to the less than optimal grafts yield in liniar HT scars on the back of the head.

I have seen quite a few front scalp liniar scars grafted with ease. "Dean" was a poster from another site who had a liniar strip removed from his hairline filled with 4mm punch graft plugs. His results were excellent when planting into that scar. Same goes fro face lift scars, brow lift scars and so on. These scars are a walk in the park as they mimic virgin tissue.

Now find me a scar on the back of the head as a result of a liniar Hair Transplant strip surgery and show me "great" results. Never seen one yet and its going on my 7th year of searching.

  

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parableMon Aug-01-05 04:13 PM
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#16. "RE: Not a fair heading for this thread"
In response to Reply # 15


          

This is exactly what I was saying...
thanks for pointing out all the differences Notanewbie/balloonman!

  

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notanewbieMon Aug-01-05 04:32 PM
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#17. "RE: Not a fair heading for this thread"
In response to Reply # 16


          

Parable, that wasnt at all what you were saying in your above post. You were commenting on the graft placement and design of the hairline, I made no such comments.

My comments pertain only to the difference between graftsing liniar scars on the forehead when compared to those on the back of the skull.

  

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parableMon Aug-01-05 04:59 PM
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#18. "RE: Not a fair heading for this thread"
In response to Reply # 17
Mon Aug-01-05 05:00 PM by parable

          

Read again....
"Now, when posters are talking about scar tissue I think the majority are more or less referring to strip scars in the donor area. My understanding is this type of brow lift isn't as invasive as a strip scar and therefore doesn't really help in determining whether grafts have a good survival rate in the donor strip area."

  

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HairSiteMon Aug-01-05 06:14 PM
Member since Apr 16th 2007
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#19. "Fue into scar pictures"
In response to Reply # 15


  

          

FUE into scar photos have been posted many times before in the forum, go over the older posts in the forum........

some examples....

http://www.hairsite8.com/htdocs/jones/pic1.htm

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=17120&mode=full

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=19703&mesg_id=19703&page=4

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=18473&mesg_id=18473&page=7

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=23493&mode=full

http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=12&topic_id=19858&mode=full


Regards,
HairSite.com
email: hairsite@aol.com
========================
Disclaimer: I am NOT a doctor. Please do not consider anything you read from this website or any of the forums as medical advice.

  

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Spanish DudeMon Aug-01-05 07:09 PM
Member since Jun 19th 2004
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#20. "I think she needs more FUEs"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

If I understood correctly, she got only 200 FUEs in the photos?
Well, she clearly needs more coverage.

The frontline looks weird now because it has very low density, while the backline has a very thick density of hair. The contrast looks ugly.

So, adding density, the result will probably be good.

  

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ETERNAL HOPEMon Aug-01-05 07:36 PM
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#21. " Scar Tissue Study.."
In response to Reply # 20


  

          

There was also a study performed in 2004 (Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences-Wang J, Fan J)whereas cicatricial eyebrow reconstruction/transplantation revealed a graft survival rate of 98.1%. This was achieved in spite of severe burn, skin grafting and traumatic scarring involved with trialists. 91.5 hairs per cm/2 was deemed as a complete restoration figure for median eyebrow consistencies of nature..


Ciao!

  

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ETERNAL HOPEMon Aug-01-05 07:57 PM
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#22. "RE: Scar Tissue Study.."
In response to Reply # 21
Mon Aug-01-05 07:57 PM by ETERNAL HOPE

  

          

These same researchers treated individuals with cicatricial SCALP alopecia (including burns/trauma/infectious scarring) through the transplantation method, with great success/efficacy rate. (90-95% survival in all trialists)
They concluded that dense-packing hair grafting technique is not only a simple, safe and effective method for hair restoration surgery, yet can also be applied for restoration of cicatricial alopecia.


Ciao!

  

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notanewbieTue Aug-02-05 01:55 AM
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#23. "OK, let me address all of these one at a time..."
In response to Reply # 22


          

Hairsite, let me address each of the flaws in the links you posted one at a time.

Link #1: Dr Jones planted in excess of 1000 grafts in those scars. Certain areas grew ok others not at all. For 1000 grafts to be planted and get that result is unacceptable to me. Cost aside, the yield was low, my estimate is less than 50%. The hair length in both pictures is different and the only section that was clearly photographed and displayed was the part of the scar where any grafts took. The other sections of the scar yielded little to no growth.

Link #2: that scar is not a liniar HT scar, it was alopecia, trauma or some sort of a burn. Since it is not a strip scar all bets are off, they are completely different. Furthermore, the patient in the link discussed the yield at the 3 month mark whihc isnt ample time for grafts to grow. In fact, many grafts still have not shed at the 90 day mark, so what he "thought" was growth could very well be unshed grafts that may never regrow at all. Regardless, it isnt a scar from strip surgery and it isnt at the back of the skull.

Link #3: The scar in the photos is not yet fully healed and mature. It was raised and hypertrophic. Besides that, it had hair already growing from within the scar and the before photos are no where near as detailed as the after photos. First issue is that no growth could have taken place at all becuase the grafts could have already been growing from the scar OR they could have been dormant and grew later on. In fact, the scar after 1 year looks less pink, less raised and much more like surrounding tissue. Even if you feel all of the grafts were from Jones work, the patient has nowhere near 1000 grafts growing form the scar and if there are 2-300 he would be lucky.

Link #4: Only 200 grafts were planted into that scar. Is the scar even a result of a strip surgery? It looks far too wide and could be alopecia of some kind. In any case, it isn't possible to determine the yield on 200 grafts. Clearly his scar looks better but, who is to say if 100 grew or 200 grew? Inconclusive at best and the scar is still clearly visible.

Link#5: The hair is clearly grown longer above the scar in an effort to conceal the scar itself. No idea of the success or failure of this patient with these photos. Again, the before photo is zoomed way out and the after is zoomed in. Hair is at different lenghts too.

Link #6: I see no difference in this patient at all. The scar is far less pink which in and of itslef is an improvement from the before photos. The hair is parted differently on the after photos which givves the illusion of a smaller scar when in fact, the hair at teh fringes of the scar are what we are looking at. Very few if any grafts growing from within the scar and we never got to see where they were placed to compare the yield.


I am not here to state that it doesnt work or no grafts can grow in strip scars. I am saying that it is a hit or miss scenario and far more often then not it is a miss. Even in a HIT scenario, I have never seen more than 50% yield and at 10 bucks a pop for 1000 grafts you will spend 10 grand and yield 500 grafts. YES, the 500 grafts will help to reduce the contrast and camoflauge the scar to a degree but, it will not allow for a shorter haircut or anything near invisibility of the scar.

Eternal Hope: Burn scars, shotgun scars, alopecia, traction induced scarring, trauma scars etc.. have no correlation whatsoever to yield in strip scars. It is an unknown phenomenon and I have yet to read an explanation on why it is this way, but it is.

Strip scars are the single most difficult scars to revise and graft into with success. Perhaps it is the constant rotation of the head that causes the scar to stretch. Perhaps it is the tendency for keloid or hypertrophic scars to form there. I have even heard that the extreme vascularity of the scalp could be a handicap in scar formation because so much blood flows to the wound that the collogen production gets whacked out and the wound actually heals too quickly, hence the formation of abnormal scar tissue becomes more prevelant.

In any case, I have yet to see a scar grafted by any Dr in over 10 years of research, that shows the same or even similar yield as virgin tissue.

  

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ericgomesTue Aug-02-05 05:40 AM
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#24. "RE: OK, let me address all of these one at a time..."
In response to Reply # 23


  

          

Notanewbie,
All that you have been researching points to a conclusion that one should never go for strip. One will never be sure of the fue grafts ever growing in the strip scar to be able to hide it.
So one should never go for strip no matter how thin the scar in some other person.
I totally agree with this part for different reasons though.

  

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notanewbieTue Aug-02-05 07:45 AM
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#26. "To Eric gomez"
In response to Reply # 24


          

That is your interpretation of my comments, certainly not mine.

For one thing, I think the vast majority of strip patients either dont notice their scar, arent concerned about it or have thin unnoticeable scars. Sure many have wide scars but, those are the patients who either had multiple strip surgeries, extreme post operative swelling or went to a Dr with poor closure techniques. While no actual percentages exist, I would be willing to guess that less than 5% of strip patients have bad or unsatisfactory scarring.

But, we digress. The only thing that matters to me are the end results and there is NO doubt that FUE doesnt have the results that strip does. Its not that there arent enough FUE cases or that strip has been around longer. FUE has had plenty of time to prove their equality or superiority and has not done so.

Factor in the extensive time needed in a chair, the need to shave your entire head for large sessions, double the cost in most cases and triple the cost in others, and the overwhelming evidence that FUE in the hands of every Dr in the US causes white dots and visible circular scarring leads me to a completely different conclusion that you Mr Gomez.

But, I guess thats why forums like these exist and why thousands of Drs do too.

  

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bhupinderTue Aug-02-05 09:03 AM
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#27. "Notanewbie and white dots"
In response to Reply # 26
Tue Aug-02-05 09:04 AM by bhupinder

          

the overwhelming
>evidence that FUE in the hands of every Dr in the US causes
>white dots and visible circular scarring leads me to a
>completely different conclusion that you Mr Gomez.

I apologise for butting in, but I think a more precise way of phrasing
this sentence will be
"the overwhelming evidence that FUE in the hands of every doctor who does NOT perform either the Donor Sealing Protocol or DEM causes white dots and visible circular scarring".

These methods ensure lack of visible scarring in the scalp donor areas and were invented and pioneered by Dr. A's Clinic.

The smallest extraction site will lead to white dot 1 to 3 months post op as the healing takes place and the collagen is deposited in the donor wound.
Some people show photos of a few days post surgery only. Such photos can be misleading as the white dots take time to form and will be visible only if a person shaves the scalp and looks for them closely and does not have a very fair/white color scalp.

I have seen those white dots in cases of patients who have got fue done by the non US doctors who do not perform Donor sealing/DEM.

So, I think the sentence is misleading and unnecessarily unfair towards the US doctors.

  

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notanewbieTue Aug-02-05 04:01 PM
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#28. "Bhupinder.."
In response to Reply # 27


          

OK, lets use your own statements then.

Which Drs in the US do donor sealing or donor exchange? NONE? Sure Dr Umar does but, he has no patient photos to prove a. that any of his grafts grow, b. that his hairline design and angulation looks natural, c. that HIS donor sealing technique eliminates white dots.

So, in the end, there are no Dr's in the US who's FUE extractions do not cause this scarring. I have seen it on every single Dr perfroming FUE from Woods, to Cole, to Jones to Feller.

In fact, I have even seen it on Dr A's patients but, now that his new protocol is in effect, perhaps in time we will see more after photos with heads shaved to the bone to prove or disprove his theories and he is located in India not the US.

Finally, I commented a long time ago that the only way to prove that Dr A's sealing works would be to divide a single patients head into sections, use the same extraction tool and then do half with and half without donor sealing. Come back 1 year post op and see if one half healed better than the other.

To show a single patient with no circles or white dots proves nothing. The patients physiology could have produced the same result with or without the sealing protocol. In my case, I had no donor sealing done, had over 4000 extractions and have perhaps 50 or so white dots using a .75mm punch. The areas that have white dots were those that were "hit" on 2 or 3 different surgical days over the course of 1 year. Those areas where extractions occured only a single time have no visible pigment loss, circles or scarring of any kind. I attribute the scarring more to the tool size than the sealing or donor exchange protocol.

Had you done the sealing on me, you could have also claimed it worked when in fact no sealing provided the same results. Patient physiology and small extraction tools play the single biggest factor in this type of scarring.

  

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Dr. SanTue Aug-02-05 04:47 PM
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#29. "Notanewbie and proof"
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

I will take time to answer your question in place of Bhupinder.

>OK, lets use your own statements then.
>
>Which Drs in the US do donor sealing or donor exchange?
>So, in the end, there are no Dr's in the US who's FUE
>extractions do not cause this scarring. I have seen it on
>every single Dr perfroming FUE from Woods, to Cole, to Jones
>to Feller.

Bhupinder's aim was to point out an implied fallacy.
By saying that US doctors fue left white doctors, it implied that all the non US doctors who did fue did not leave white dots in the donor areas. Even when they did not use the donor sealing or the DEM.

>In fact, I have even seen it on Dr A's patients

MAY I REQUEST YOU TO POINT OUT THE PATIENT OR POST HIS PHOTOS.


>more after photos with heads shaved to the bone to prove or
>disprove his theories and he is located in India not the US.

I AM SURE WE WILL BE ABLE TO OBLIGE YOU WITH THAT. MEANTIME, WE HAVE ALREADY POSTED PHOTOS BEFORE OF THE BENEFIT OF THE DONOR SEALING METHOD.

>To show a single patient with no circles or white dots proves
>nothing.

I BELEIVE DR. A HAS SHOWN MORE THAN 1 PATIENT.

In my case, I had
>no donor sealing done, had over 4000 extractions and have
>perhaps 50 or so white dots using a .75mm punch.

ARE YOU SURE THAT YOUR SCALP SKIN IS NOT WHITE?
WE KEEP POINTING THAT WHITE DOTS WILL NOT BE VISIBLE OR VERY DIFFICULT TO DISCERN ON WHITE SKIN.
I attribute
>the scarring more to the tool size than the sealing or donor
>exchange protocol.

IT IS NOT A FUNCTION OF THE DIAMETER OF THE EXTRACTION TOOL. THE SMALLER THE TOOL THE SMALLER THE WHITE DOT. ITHE WHITE DOT IS MADE BY THE COLLAGEN THAT GETS DEPOSITED DURING THE HEALING PROCESS.


>Had you done the sealing on me, you could have also claimed it
>worked when in fact no sealing provided the same results.
>Patient physiology and small extraction tools play the single
>biggest factor in this type of scarring.
I AM HAPPY, FOR YOUR SAKE, THAT YOU HAVE NO VISIBLE WHITE DOTS.
BUT DR. A FEELS THAT DONOR SEALING IS AN ADDITIONAL IMPROVEMENT OVER THE REGULAR FUE TECHNIQUES.
EVEN THOUGH IT CONSUMES EXTRA TIME AND EFFORT, ITS ALWAYS FOR THE BETTER OF THE PATIENT.

  

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notanewbieTue Aug-02-05 05:52 PM
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#30. "Dr San, please read..."
In response to Reply # 29


          

My point is that all US Dr's that have posted shaved photos of the donor area 1 year post op show these white dots. 99% of Dr Woods patients and even DHI patients do not. I believe there may be 2 or 3 Woods patients that have shown such dots, but these were early on in Dr Woods career and no recent photos have surfaced.

Dr Woods does not use any such protocol, uses very small instruments and has more patients than all other FUE Dr's combined, or close to it as he has been doing this for 12 years versus 1 year for Dr A.

I do not have the photos of the Dr A patient(s) with white dot scarring. It is impossible to keep records of the hundreds of photos I see monthly on all of the different hair loss sites. However, I know they were posted. Are you claiming that Dr A has never had a single patient with such scarring? If so, then why bother spending countless hours doing donor exchange and sealing if by his own admission his patients never had an issue with scarring? THINK ABOUT THAT ANSWER BEFORE RESPONDING.

Again, the photos of Dr A's donor sealing protocol do nothing but show that a single or even a dozen patients have good to excellent healing characteristics and physiology. He also uses small tools which I have stated causes little to no visible scarring or pigment loss. In order to prove that his method somehow improves the donor area, he must show the same patient with 1/2 of the head using his protocol and the other using nothing but nature. Only then can he make such claims. I have no such scarring and used no donor sealing or exchange of any kind.

I am caucasian but, I am not fair skinned. I am dark skinned with meditteranean blood lines. I tan quickly, get very dark and do not burn easily. When my head is shaved and tan there is no loss of pigment in the areas where grafts were extracted with an exception of about 50 "spots" out of 4000 extraction sites. about 1% or so. Yes, my scalp it whiter than the rest of my face because the hair or stubble helps to shade it. That works the same way even if you are black skinned. The hair will shade your skull and not your face so your face will always be darker than your scalp (if you have hair and shave it) because it isnt in the direct sunlight.

I 100% completely disagree with your unproven and unfounded statement that the tool size has no bearing on scarring. I have proven it on myself, I have seen it on dozens of other patients in person and in photos. In fact, I will do one better than that...

Anything larger than a .8mm punch will cause scarring and anything smaller than that will not. Hows that for my blanket statement? Use a .75mm punch WITHOUT donor sealing and no such scarring will exist. Use a 1mm punch or larger and there will be a pigment loss and white dot without question. I cannot say that a 1mm punch with donor sealing will or will not leave pigment loss because I do not know and neither do you. Prove it as described above and we can all know for certain but, I can tell you that sealing is a non issue when using small instruments. Proven by DHI, Woods, Bisanga and any other Dr in the WORLD that uses these small tools.



  

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FranklinWed Aug-03-05 02:54 AM
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#36. "RE: Dr San, please read..."
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

"Dr Woods does not use any such protocol, uses very small instruments and has more patients than all other FUE Dr's combined, or close to it as he has been doing this for 12 years versus 1 year for Dr A." This statement I also agree with. Besides the quote here. I do not think all Fue is the same and wish patients that come here for the first time will really take the time out to investigate this properly before leaping into Fue.

  

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ericgomesWed Aug-03-05 05:18 AM
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#38. "Wrong on many counts"
In response to Reply # 30


  

          

>My point is that all US Dr's that have posted shaved photos
>of the donor area 1 year post op show these white dots. 99% of
>Dr Woods patients and even DHI patients do not. I believe
>there may be 2 or 3 Woods patients that have shown such dots
+++++++++++++++++++,
99 percent of Woods patients have not shown the shaved donor area 6 months or more after fue.
Woods has himself posted that there will be visible white dots by the Woods technique, if you wet shave the donor areas.
That disproves your argument.
++++++++++++++++++++
>but these were early on in Dr Woods career and no recent
>photos have surfaced.
>
>Dr Woods does not use any such protocol, uses very small
>instruments and has more patients than all other FUE Dr's
>combined, or close to it as he has been doing this for 12
>years versus 1 year for Dr A.
++++++++++++++++++++
I met a patient of Dr. A who had got chest hair transplanted in 2001 when I was doing my research.
My first fue was 2 years back.
Woods and other doctors do not perform donor sealing or 52. Because it is extra work.
First you have to separate the sealant and then you have to painstakingly aply it to the donor sites.
++++++++++++++++++++
>I do not have the photos of the Dr A patient(s) with white dot
>scarring.
++++++++++++++++++++
Of course you do not have any.
+++++++++++++++++++.
>
>Again, the photos of Dr A's donor sealing protocol do nothing
>but show that a single or even a dozen patients have good to
>excellent healing characteristics and physiology. He also uses
>small tools which I have stated causes little to no visible
>scarring or pigment loss.
+++++++++++++++++++
Strange, that you do not ask for shaved donor area photos 6 months later, without flash, from Woods, who you claim has more patients than all other fue doctors combined but does not use donor sealing.
Photos of atleast 12 patients where the scalp has been wet shaven and no donor sealing performed.
Dr. A has already shared an ingenious technique developed by him.
The onus to prove that other doctors can get the same "no white dot result" without it rests on the remaining doctors who do not use it.
And Woods says his tech gives white dots.
++++++++++++++++++
I have
>no such scarring and used no donor sealing or exchange of any
>kind.
>
>
>I 100% completely disagree with your unproven and unfounded
>statement that the tool size has no bearing on scarring. ...
++++++++++++++++++++
Even when Dr. Woods says that white dots exist with his fine secret tools????
++++++++++++++++++++ Use a .75mm punch WITHOUT donor sealing and no
>such scarring will exist.
++++++++++++++++++++
Scar tissue is a product of body's healing process. You mean to no healing process will be required for .75 mm?
++++++++++++++++++
I can tell you that sealing is a non issue when
>using small instruments. Proven by DHI, Woods, Bisanga and any
>other Dr in the WORLD that uses these small tools.
>
>
>
>
+++++++++++++++++++
Prove that donor sealing is not required?

  

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sj23Wed Aug-03-05 06:46 AM
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#45. "RE: Wrong on many counts"
In response to Reply # 38


          

My donor area looks fine to me. Aside from the flakes, it looks great.. Even if there were 'white dots' I think it's perfectly acceptable and worth it to have a nice hairline. I can't afford to fly down under and spend 3 times what i've spent already for smaller scar dots.

Current Regimen:
AVODART 0.5mg
NIZORAL 1%
EUCAPIL
WHEY PROTEIN

Procedures:
Dr. Robert Jones (3)FUE 2003, 2004, 2005
Graft Total: 3200

  

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FranklinWed Aug-03-05 02:48 AM
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#34. "RE: Bhupinder.."
In response to Reply # 28


  

          

"I attribute the scarring more to the tool size than the sealing or donor exchange protocol.

Had you done the sealing on me, you could have also claimed it worked when in fact no sealing provided the same results. Patient physiology and small extraction tools play the single biggest factor in this type of scarring." I have to agree with this staement.In my opinion the only people that are going to care are those who want to close shave there head then the scarring will come into play cosmeticaly. But a bigger issue I believe is what is going on in the areas that the grafts are being taken out of??? That is my big concern. Are we just masking up the bigger extraction sites with the donor sealing?? I want to know that a carefully planned surgery will result in going back to the well so to speak to strategically remove the donor follicles without the appearnce of moth eaten donor.I never plan to shave my head due to my old strip scar. So I want my donor perserved as much as possible. Top priority for me.


  

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arfyWed Aug-03-05 01:44 AM
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#32. "RE: Scar Tissue Study.."
In response to Reply # 22


  

          

Eternal Hope, those are totally different kinds of scars than a strip excision scar. The strip scar goes DEEP, so the actual tissue the follicle gets implanted into is totally different than a burn scar or surface scar. Strip scarring also affects circulation more than a surface scar. You are comparing a totally different apples-oranges situation. I agree with Not A Newbie on this point.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/hairtransplant/

  

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ETERNAL HOPEWed Aug-03-05 02:33 AM
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#33. "RE: Scar Tissue Study.."
In response to Reply # 32
Wed Aug-03-05 02:36 AM by ETERNAL HOPE

  

          

>Eternal Hope, those are totally different kinds of scars than
>a strip excision scar. The strip scar goes DEEP, so the actual
>tissue the follicle gets implanted into is totally different
>than a burn scar or surface scar. Strip scarring also affects
>circulation more than a surface scar. You are comparing a
>totally different apples-oranges situation. I agree with Not A
>Newbie on this point.




It is certainly your perogative arfy.. When a study infers to "traumatic scarring" which is an actual text quote, it usually dictates a much more acute cicatrice/deep wound than the "surface scar" as you term it. If researchers were attempting to convey a "surface scar" I'm sure they would have stated as such.


Ciao!

  

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arfyWed Aug-03-05 02:53 AM
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#35. "RE: Scar Tissue Study.."
In response to Reply # 33


  

          

You don't address my point, the scars are different. We are all entitled to our opinions, however we are not all entitled to our own facts. A bad strip scar is not only deep, but it's also deep/wide. If it wasn't also wide there would be no reason to graft it. Real "pencil thin scars" don't need correction.

These are apples and oranges you are comparing. I'm glad you are reading the research but your comparison is irrelevant, sorry.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/hairtransplant/

  

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ericgomesTue Aug-02-05 05:45 AM
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#25. "RE: Photos of hair growth in strip scar (Dr. A)"
In response to Reply # 0


  

          

Dr. A,
Can you post some donor area strip scars with BH filled into it?
To me, that would be the best option. No point wasting head hair to fill in that area.

  

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DJTue Aug-02-05 10:11 PM
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#31. "RE: Photos of hair growth in strip scar (Dr. A)"
In response to Reply # 25


  

          

Bman or Notanewbie, up to his old tricks... the know it all man.

We have been waiting for his head shaven to the bone for quite some time to prove his theories or statements on his perfect donor sites he got, yet for some reason he cannot seem to find those photos that were created via, the GIANT and GREAT DHI, claims, always lot of claims from this poster.

He likes to demand everyone else post pictures of their donor, yet where are his after the great perfect work from DHI??? The no white dot area. HE himself promised those pictures which he cannot deliver, because they are not there! I guess his camera does not work for his shaven head for some reason, but only since his surgery with DHI. Before that he has highly documented photos of all his work.

Bman or Notanewbie is responsible for getting hundreds of guys to go to DHI, that got very little growth, yet he takes no responsibility for his embracement of DHI, that caused so many guys to not only get very little growth, lose their savings, and time, and if this is not enough, lose precious hair follicles.

Yet where is his apology???

Peter Mac, is also responsible for influencing hundreds of guys to spend their hair follicles, money, time... with very little growth, yet where is his apology... ??? This is another poster that went into the hair business, that had no or very little surgery or experience with surgery. Promoted surgery but for some reason did not want to get it for himself. He was just basically a poster that worked for H airloss help, that decided he was an expert with hair surgery, because he read about it. Then got paid and through his influence got lots of guys to go to DHI and what a loss it was for Lee and many others. This is why you must talk to guys that went to the doctor, or clinic, many if possible. Guys with real experience, not book guys. Bman would not be so bad if he had not gone and gotten poor growth and still sells or pushes clinic with bad work. Show me one guy done with fue that looks fantastic from his dhi clinic??? or with strip, don't think I have seen one I like. Show me several? Where are they, and these pristine photos? Even Bman got what I call just passable growth in his hairline, with three thousand fue put in it? Sad...

Bman or Notanewbie swore DHI was the greatest, if you do not believe it research his threads, blank statements about dhi and you will see for yourself. Yet here he is giving his advice, claiming he got no white dots from this challenged clinic, yet where is his pictures, his proof/?? He has none! Yet, he can and does post his pictures of all the rest of the work from them, just not the donor.

Lets ask this question? Why is he not posting pictures of his head shaven down to the bone as he calls it...?? Why? The Poor Clinic he went to, got no white dots, but everyone else does )

When he can finally prove and substantiate his moanings, then we can finally take some of what he says seriously, till then. NO



dj

  

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notanewbieWed Aug-03-05 05:10 AM
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#37. "Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>"
In response to Reply # 31
Wed Aug-03-05 05:41 PM by HairSite

          

Let me start by saying that DHI hasnt even performed "hundreds" of FUE jobs so when you state I (Balloonman) and Peter Mac have sent hundreds of patients into the lions den you are making a grossly exaggerated overstatement that has no merit or fact whatsoever. Neither I (Balloonman) or Peter Mac ever "sent" anyone anywhere just like no one on this site sends anyone anywhere. We post our opinions and photos and let them speak for themselves. I will say once again, that while DHI gets slammed repeatedly on these and other forums, I have yet to find a single DHI patient that has complained about THEIR growth or THEIR work. Sure people come on here and bash Lee for his 9000 BHT but, I never heard him say he was upset or felt cheated for getting as you stated:

"very little growth, lose their savings, and time, and if this is not enough, lose precious hair follicles."

I cannot comprehend how you can make such a statement when you yourself have never been to DHI, never heard a patient claim any such thing and draw your own opinions and conclusions on photos. Until you hear a DHI patient come on here and say he got AIDS from dirty tools, is BROKE because DHI stole his money, is DONOR DEPLETED because DHI F'ed him up or needs repair work because they did shoddy work, I think you should keep your inacurate and flat out BS comments to yourself. It is you who is trying to lead people not me or anyone else.

And for the record, I am NOT reccomending DHI nor am I reccomending any other FUE Dr at this time, nor am I defending DHI. I feel your attacks are unwarranted and unfair based on the limited facts you have.


Lets move onto the remainder of your prefabricated post.

Balloonman has had his photos up on photobucket for nearly 2 years now, here is the link:

http://photobucket.com/albums/v259/Balloonman/

In there are all of his preop photos, post op DHI photos, shaved head photos and scarring photos..knock yourself out. With regards to his latest surgery, he was recently on another site where he posted new photos. They are 1 year AFTER DHI extracted 4000 grafts. I defy you to find any donor scarring and feel free to comment on the hairline that you feel was "passable" or "poor" growth. And you are 100% incorrect, he did not have 3000 grafts put into his hairline he had 1500 put into his hairline, the other 2000 went into his liniar scars.


Try not to disappear after I spent the time to reply to your <> post, So, here are your 1 year post DHI photos:

http://photobucket.com/albums/b229/balloonman2/

  

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ericgomesWed Aug-03-05 05:33 AM
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#39. "Bad"
In response to Reply # 37


  

          

Balloonman/notanewbie,
I saw you 1 year after photos.seeing them convinces me that you shud have gone for donor sealing and maybe even DEM.
I can see lots of empty spaces and I am sure that you can not risk ever getting your scalp tan. The spaces will shine.
Your donor area with the hair grown also looks pretty thinned out to me.
If you had got DEM, that may have been rectified.
Anyway better luck for your future surgeries.

  

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parableWed Aug-03-05 05:51 AM
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#40. "DHI"
In response to Reply # 39
Wed Aug-03-05 06:06 AM by parable

          

I know that I didnt have good growth with DHI and I have waited it out to make sure...

Also they used a 1mm punch on my donor and you can certainly see the scarring in these areas..

  

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DuckWed Aug-03-05 06:38 AM
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#44. "RE: Bad"
In response to Reply # 39
Wed Aug-03-05 06:39 AM by Duck

          

Ericgomes I believe Balloonman wears his hair longer than the only non shaven photo in the photo bucket from seeing his photos on here before. So he went to get hair not to be able to shave his head in this case. And as far as DEM is there a patient that has had this procedure after a year that we can refer to. That shows the donor thickened up again????? I have not seen one. And if it does not pan out as advertised you lost the grafts that could have been used for the thickening in the transplanted areas. Meaning if you went back in to try and salvage the DEM hairs to put back on top. You would lose the penential benefits!

  

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johnpWed Aug-03-05 06:20 AM
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#41. "RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>"
In response to Reply # 37
Wed Aug-03-05 06:33 AM by johnp

          

Wow, those are great hairlines ! The only thing is that I find your photo gallery difficult to follow. I couldn't find the before picture. I need to know how bald you were in the front in order to tell what part of the hairline is transplanted hairs.

  

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notanewbieWed Aug-03-05 06:32 AM
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#42. "RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>"
In response to Reply # 41


          

ericgomes: you are entitled to your opinion. remember that no other patient that I know of has had 6000 grafts via strip and 4000 grafts via FUE, so keep that in mind when viewing my donor. I must disagree with you on the white dots, there are none and my head tans easily when shaved down, there is no discernable difference. Also, the barron spaces you see will be present on all FUE jobs, I cannot in real life or on the photos, see any difference in pigment but, again if you do then you do.

  

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johnpWed Aug-03-05 06:38 AM
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#43. "RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>"
In response to Reply # 42


          

I did see white dots in the photos but I don't think that they are bad at all. It's kind of what you expected anyway when you go for FUE. The white dots are acceptable IMO.

  

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SkywalkerThu Aug-04-05 12:07 PM
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#46. "RE: Been waiting for you DJ>>>>>>>>"
In response to Reply # 43


          


I cannot access Notanewbie's pictures from here (corporate firewall) but I did view them on another short-lived site. The pictures were too large for an ideal 'reality' view but what I saw was gaps (as you would expect) not dots. Having said this I have personally been generally very unimpressed with the DHI yield.

  

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notanewbieThu Aug-04-05 04:19 PM
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#47. "I agree.."
In response to Reply # 46


          

Generally I too have been unimpressed with DHI yields, however I have been unimpressed with all of the FUE Dr yileds that I have seen. Keep in mind that FUE has been practiced by the "big 4" here for over 3 years. Now we have maybe a dozen cases with good/great yield from 4 Drs who have performed hundreds of cases between them.

What none of them show is the donor area like I have shown, shaved down to the bone.

Yes, DHI has low yields overall but, no lower than any of the other Drs and because of the small punch the donor has "gaps" as you clearly stated and not "white dots" as I have seen from ALL other FUE Drs.

Increase the punch and increase the yield because you have a higher probability of extracting a perfect graft. However, that larger graft hole will cause VISIBLE donor scarring that isnt visible with the smaller punches.

Pick your poison, I picked mine already.

  

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ADPFri Aug-05-05 04:07 AM
Member since Sep 29th 2003
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#48. "laughable!!!"
In response to Reply # 47


          

How many doctors are doing FUE and how many have done strip?
I have always said, the biggest disadvantage and issue I have with FUE is the price tag. You remove that issue and you will see many more patients who can afford big FUE sessions. That is the only reason you have not seen many wow photos. There is proof but if you wait a bit more you will get more proof. When you see FUE patients with high numbers of grafts done, you then see wow photos. Besides getting a competent doctor, HTs have always been a numbers game.
The great thing about FUE is that you can use body hair to get those numbers. With strip you only have what God gave you in the back of your scalp.


FUE is always improving and as I see it will continue to improve. So if you still don't like what you see, come back in 3 or 4 years from now. Strip surgery has hit a brick wall!!! No more room for improvement there.





Below is what you say about all but 5% of strips but you want to see pictures of FUE patients down to the bone to say
how bad it looks? Incredible!!! This is laughable!!!

***** For one thing, I think the vast majority of strip patients either dont notice their scar, arent concerned about
it or have thin unnoticeable scars. *****





but to prove another point you actually admit and explain about how awful it is having strips:

***** Strip scars are the single most difficult scars to revise and graft into with success. Perhaps it is the constant rotation
of the head that causes the scar to stretch. Perhaps it is the tendency for keloid or hypertrophic scars to form there. I
have even heard that the extreme vascularity of the scalp could be a handicap in scar formation because so much blood flows
to the wound that the collogen production gets whacked out and the wound actually heals too quickly, hence the formation
of ABNORMAL SCAR TISSUE BECOMES MORE PREVELANT ****

***** liniar scars created IN THE BACK OF THE SCALP BY STRIP SURGERY are the most difficult to graft.******

***** The type of scar that is formed at the forehead is rarely hypertrophic, thick, dense or keloid,
it is generally white and flat, something few HT stip scars are when doen on the back of the scalp.
These and many other factors contribute to the less than optimal grafts yield in liniar HT scars on the back of the head. ******





Before, YOU HAVE ALWAYS SAID TO US ALL, including to newbies, THE WAY TO GO IS TO HAVE A STRIP AND PUT FUE IN THE SCAR
BUT IN THIS WHOLE THREAD YOU ARE SAYING THE EXACT OPPOSITE!!!
PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!! HERE IS MORE PROOF!!!!

**** Now find me a scar on the back of the head as a result of a liniar Hair Transplant strip surgery and show me "great" results.
Never seen one yet and its going on my 7th year of searching. *****


  

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DJFri Aug-05-05 06:10 AM
Member since Jun 22nd 2003
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#49. "RE: laughable!!!"
In response to Reply # 48
Fri Aug-05-05 06:13 AM by DJ

  

          

BMAN/ Notanewbie:Yes, Generally I too have been unimpressed with DHI yields,DHI has low yields overall ,,,,


DJ: I am glad you agree with me. It is nice to see,Bman. I have talked with many guys that have had poor growth with DHI, if you have not, your head is in the sand, or you don't want to know. You have influenced many guys through your posting to do work with dhi, and you well know it. I am sorry you cannot own it and or feel some sorrow for the guys that you got to waste precious hair. But, then again, you accept no responsibility for anything you say or do. So, what's new?
Parable:I know that I didnt have good growth with DHI and I have waited it out to make sure...

Also they used a 1mm punch on my donor and you can certainly see the scarring in these areas..

DJ: Bman, here is one, Parable is one... so now you have heard of one. Bad DHI WORK<But I have talked with quite a few now, or gotten emails from them, so again, this is where we are different.

DJ:Look, fue is not perfect, but it's developing and getting better with the work from Cole, Dr A, Umar and Wolf... I like all four of these doctors, for different reasons. We may have to shop to get part of the work from one and another part from another, but the good work is there.

DJ:I was in LA a few weeks ago, and met up with Eternal Hope, saw his work with Umar and was quite impressed with what I saw, the donor sealing, the taking of Anagen hair only, the small tools, and the commitment of Dr Umar, having been a hair victim himself. I feel he really gets what we go through. His suffering for years with bad scarring and baldness has made him a man of caring. I like what I see and the innovation being done there. So, we wait for growth from his patients, but for me, I feel positive about it and what I saw.

DJ:I hear Cole has some new tools and lets hope he is moving forward with his innovations, because the hairline work is fine..

DJ:I feel quite positive about what is happening with fue and it's evolvement.

DJ:I will say it again, strip is a tool of the past that can be used now to add numbers for a cheaper price, but the consequences could be worse than baldness, if the scar goes wrong.

DJ:Bman, I hope your hair journey is at an end, I know you are bman, we all do, .... )



D s, your shaved look is from far away. I would like to see some shaven pictures up close of your pristine donor.


iamdhead@aol.com

dj

  

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notanewbieFri Aug-05-05 06:54 AM
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#51. "My photos are from far away?"
In response to Reply # 49


          

Are you sure you are looking at MY photos? They are about as close up and detailed as any I have seen and I have seen alot. There are dozens of them from all angles and from multiple distances. Go back and look again beacuse if your answer to me is that my photos arent detailed enough then it is your head that is in the sand. Try clicking on each thumbnail, maybe thats the problem. On the net you need to click on the thumbnails to expand them..try that then come on back and talk.

I am in contact with each and every DHI patient that has ever posted on these forums. We are all in each others contact emails and we speak quite often. Parable isnt part of our mailer and I have no idea how many grafts he had or why they used a 1mm punch on him and .75mm on the rest of us. OK, very good, you have found one out of a hundred, I have a list of disgruntled patients from Feller,Cole and Jones..so what? Every Dr has failures or unhappy patients but, one out of a hundred aint bad.

As far as yield goes, perhaps parable should go to one of the other FUE Drs and see if his yield is any better? Based on what I see, none of them get 100% yield so it is hit or miss with any Dr you choose but, at least with DHI and the .75mm punches, your donor doesnt look like it was blasted with 00 buckshot and my 4500 graft job is proof of that. Show me ANY other Dr who has extracted that many FUE grafts with their head shaved down 1 year post op, THEN we can make a fair assessment. Until then, its like having a grat hairline and 2 inch wide strip scar..a whole lotta nothing and a different problem that needs to now be addressed.

We disagree 100% on your statement that I drove or drive anyone to go to DHI or Feller or Unger, its just a flat out lie. If Futzyhead shows his photos and people like what they see did he drive them to H&W? If they think his job is rubbish did he drive them away from H&W? Pure nonsense! Show me thread where I told ANYONE EVER to go to DHI and I will give you 1000 bucks. Go to any forum, not just this one and use Bman, Ballonman, notanewbie ro any other name you can think of and if you find it, I will send you the money. I swear to G-D I will. But, until you do don't you ever try and paint me as a person who hurt anyone or cost them anything by way of lost grafts, lost time or lost money because it is an absolute lie. People see the photos and base their opinions on results, good or bad. no one sends people anywhere esepecially when I have nothing to gain financially or otherwise by making such a suggestion.

None of us are sheep and we choose who we do on our own, not because you or I tell them to go to Dr X.

  

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notanewbieFri Aug-05-05 06:36 AM
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#50. "Stop Laughing, nothing funny"
In response to Reply # 48


          

You are correct, I have always said that having a strip first is the way to go and I stand by that. Provided you need alot of ground covered or if you plant on losing more hair in the future. By doing it this way you can get far more grafts from your donor than by doing FUE or strip alone. I also say that FUE is a great alternative to get even more grafts out of the donor area and I completely agree with you that body hair is a great option and a whole new territory for hair. Never said anything different.

I think you may be a little "mistaken" in the grafts in the linar scar thing. Yes, I said that less than 5% of people with strip scars ever have to deal with them again or arent bothered by them or have thin unnoticeable scarring. I have also said that the FUE yield in scars is poor. But, it is what it is.

So, for you to mix up my comments and try and spin my words to imply that in some way I am contradicting myself is false. If you have a bad strip scar certainly you have the option to FUE back into it. It may work, it may not. You also have the option of revising it, tattooing it, tissue expanding it or putting body hair into it.

So in the end it all makes sense to me, so I dont quite understand why you are laughing. Guess some things are just funny to anyone.

  

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notanewbieSat Aug-06-05 07:39 PM
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#52. "YOO HOO DJ, where are you?"
In response to Reply # 50


          

Did you get lost or are you just to proud to apologize and eat crow?

BE A MAN AND RESPOND TO MY AND YOUR COMMENTS.

  

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ADPSun Aug-07-05 09:52 AM
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#53. "No twisting done ......."
In response to Reply # 52
Sun Aug-07-05 09:55 AM by ADP

          

No twisting done. Those are your words.

What was laughable is when you had to prove that strip is good, you said, people who have a strip scar don't even think about it and are not concerned and it is not noticeable. Right? Am I twisting your words? I don't think so. Yet you have done so much to try to hide / conceal your scar from everyone by tattooing, doing FUE, scar revision and more ....... So from all that, I believe you are concerned and thinking about your strip scar. Right? Hey, if I had done strip I would be concerned too! No biggie. So I was laughing at your comments not your actions.

Then you make another point on how bad a strip scar actually is from a HT. Including the physical nature of a strip. You continue by saying that you never seen a good FUE job on a scar. For me, if I had a strip, FUE on the scar is the way to go but you say it is the way to go on virgin scalps! Right?


You were trying to say earlier that it is not bad to have a strip scar unnoticeable, unconcerned... BUT now for those who have some very small "white dots" you are ramming it down their (our) throats on how bad it is and FUE is bad. Right? Don't you find that kind of a ridiculous statement? Which is more noticeable? If strip scars are not noticeable to you, are these white small dots more noticeable to you? That is why your comments sounded laughable.

Don't forget that some doctors have already gone the extra step to minimize the white dot effect. Will you then
change your faith when this is a fact? Remember again that FUE is still evolving.

I had FUE done.

Now that it's summer, the good thing is that I was able to shave my head down last week! No problems requiring to hide or conceal anything! I actually forgot about my FUE. I didn't even bother to look if it showed(those white dots). Now that is what I call being unconcerned, unnoticeable .....!!!! After reading a thread here about the white dots, I looked at my scalp and can't see those white dots. Well, my hair is now about 1/4 inch long so that might be why. Yet, my mom did the shaving and she didn't say she saw white dots. Nothing! That's what is great about FUE! I can keep my hair as long or as short as I want to. I know myself. I would not want to be thinking if my strip scar will show or stretch in the future or what's the shortest I can cut my hair. I already have enough to think about when I look at my hair!!!

Can someone with a strip keep his hair as short as I have it now, without having the world see the strip? No way!

I just want to tell people that strip is not the way to go on a virgin scalp and to think before they do it. Yes, you save money but at the
end, maybe not today but in 10 years from now I am sure you will regret doing that because THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE!


My understanding is that you are putting money into this when we are discussing what is better. Right? Is this why you are seeing things differently?
I'll repeat again, that is the single disadvantage with FUE. The price tag. For me, if you don't have the money to do a FUE, wait or go somewhere you can get it to suit your budget(another country).

FUE is not perfect either but the technology behind FUE is always changing and improving. You are also admitting to that. That is good to hear!


Now that you are saying some good points about FUE and BHT, you may be coming around!

Why get a strip when most people, with body hair(BHT) and scalp donor hair, have enough to cover the recipient site?


As for me, if I find something better than FUE, I will jump the wagon in a second!

At the end, its your head and you decide what you want done to it. It is just my opinion. Good Luck to all!

  

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notanewbieSun Aug-07-05 05:50 PM
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#54. "ADP my response to you.."
In response to Reply # 53


          

Unfortunately, you too are twisting my words again but, I think you are clearly aware of the fact while poor DJ is clueless.

I stated that "I think the vast majority of strip patients either dont notice their scar, arent concerned about it or have thin unnoticeable scars. Sure many have wide scars but, those are the patients who either had multiple strip surgeries, extreme post operative swelling or went to a Dr with poor closure techniques. While no actual percentages exist, I would be willing to guess that less than 5% of strip patients have bad or unsatisfactory scarring."

So, in simpler terms..95% or so have no problems with their scar while 5% do. I was one of the 5% that did and only in one of my 3 scars. No contradiction here, just you trying to spin it.

You state:"You continue by saying that you never seen a good FUE job on a scar. For me, if I had a strip, FUE on the scar is the way to go"

OK, show me proof of why you think FUE is the way to go on a strip scar. Don't use my photos or my history, show me anybody else with high percentage growth IN A LINIAR HT STRIP SCAR. Until you do, I think maple syrup on a scar is the way to go, so disprove my new theory, thats how relevant your opinion is.

"BUT now for those who have some very small "white dots" you are ramming it down their (our) throats on how bad it is and FUE is bad. Right?"

No, once again you are WRONG. I have never, ever said FUE was bad. I have had more FUE grafts moved from my head than anyone else in the world or certainly in the top 5. With nearly 5000 head graft FUE's transplanted, why on earth would you think I thought FUE was bad? I had both done and megasessions of both to boot and I feel strip FIRST is the way to go in order to yield more grafts. If anyone wants to start a new thread on it I can prove it to you mathmatically so, its not an opinion it is a fact.

The main benefit with FUE is the fact that you were allegedly able to shave your head bald with no noticeable scarring. That is false. You are also paying, in most cases, 3 times as much for FUE grafts as strip grafts AND the yield from FUE has still not been proven to grow as strip grafts have. So, since I have disproved the non scarring issue with photos, it is now up to Dr's like Dr A and Umar, to do a valid test with 1/2 of the head done with and 1/2 done without donor sealing to prove that it isnt their small tools or patient pysiology that doesnt cause the white dots, but specifically what THEY are doing with donor sealing.

You claim you have no white dots, thats great for you, I have very few as well but, we are the lucky ones. Many people do have the white dots but, could you please inform me as to who did your FUE, how many you had extracted and was any donor sealing/protocol used on you? I am certain you have no photos but, if you find a camera or get the chance, those would be great to see, not that I question your word though. Surely after getting FUE done you felt the need to shave your head to the bone for summer so, please find me those photos if you get the chance, otherwise your opinion is kinda worthless. I would like to know more facts before commenting on you specifically but, the shaved to the bone photos would tell the tale, if you can find some.

In conclusion, you reccomend FUE over strip and there are countless threads on the pros and cons of both. I will say again for the people who like to spin my words that I dont really have an opinion as to which is better or worse, I think it is all case specific. However, I am very strongly opinionated on which method will yield more grafts and that is a strip surgery followed by FUE. If you need or plan on needing more than 5-6000 grafts then you MUST do a strip first or just plan on using body hair after your donor is maxed out via FUE.

ADP, I hope you are around in 5 years or longer like I have been so we can follow your case. If you start losing your hair and getting really bald, you will wish you listened to me and got the strip first because after 5000 or so FUE you will be FU'ucked.

  

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ADPThu Aug-11-05 05:20 AM
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#55. "My response to you.."
In response to Reply # 54


          

Ok, so you admit that the strip scar is a concern to you. The way you talk about strip being the way to go I presumed you must have been happy with
your strip experience. So you are the perfect example of why someone should really think before having a strip.

I am sure that the majority of those who have a strip scar have concerns. The reason is that those who had or are contemplating getting a HT done, did it so they can have an appealing look for themselves. In other words, concern about our hair (look) even before we have the surgery. So even with a descent scar there is always the concern that it will stretch, or show if the hair is cut too short. You also have to be concerned that if you do a lot of FUEs later on, it will thin the donor area. So there is the concern that it will be thinned out and show the strip scar. Also, there is a possibility that your donor hair will thin out as you grow older. I have seen it in many cases with older people who can't hide their scars as well as they used to. So that is another concern.

As I said previously, that is why I don't like strips. I had gone to HT doctors since the early 1980s for consultation only. I was never
impressed enough to go thru with it. I did not like the possible outcomes (pluggy look) nor the idea of getting a strip scar. For some, strip may be an option but I like to have my hair short as well as long. I look good with both styles so why not? I know why some people
have strip as an option. It's all about the money. I don't blame them because FUE is expensive. Those that do get a strip done just have
to make sure they don't regret it at the end.



****OK, show me proof of why you think FUE is the way to go on a strip scar.****
For me I believe in that for only those who have a strip scar(non-virgin scalp). Why I am saying that, is to at least try to camouflage the area.
I know it will never be the same. That is why, I would never get a strip. I am sure you need to put more thought in this than I do.
By the way, Dr Cole (August 10 posting) has a good example of good growth in a scar with just 300 grafts.

You leave the impression in many of your posts that strip is better than FUE. You made it appear that strip scars are not a concern for most people yet the white dots from FUE are a bigger issue.

Should we bring up the white dots issue? Yes! I prefer FUE so let's see if we can minimize these white dots. Again, some doctors are trying to do this.

As for whether I have white dots, I really do not know. I said, I couldn't tell with my hair at about 1/4" length and my mom saw me at about 1/8" length but I wasn't even thinking about it so I don't know how well she looked. I asked her 1 week later if she saw the white dots. She said no. It isn't enough proof for me either.
If I shave it down, I may show you my pics. Hopefully I don't see any. If I do, well, I will know that the shortest I can keep my hair is at 1/8"-1/4" long. Is that so bad? Not for me! Let's see someone with a strip scar keep his hair that short! Unfortunately, that is asking the impossible.


I am not trying to say that FUE is perfect because it is not. Nor am I saying you can go in blindly. It is still considered surgery.
I have no stocks in FUE so it is just a matter of common sense and opinion. It is an evolving technology that looks more promising every day. No need to get a strip done. Virgin scalps should wait another year or two if you are not sure yet.

I remember when they extracted the first donor hairs on me, I was telling myself what did I get myself into! It was a very strange sensation. Imagine someone is poking something into your head! Then I calmed down and things were fine. Most people say it is like going to the dentist. Some discomfort (the anesthesia only) but not like getting a strip job done. I know you know all that but if someone else is reading .........




***** ADP, I hope you are around in 5 years or longer like I have been so we can follow your case. If you start losing your hair
and getting really bald, you will wish you listened to me and got the strip first because after 5000 or so FUE you will be FU'ucked.
****

I have seen quite a few bad strip jobs. I saw this poor guy who had 2 huge strip jobs done when he was younger. Now he is a full Norwood 7
and his strips show! Wow, not a pretty site! He now shaves his head down to the bone because any other way makes him look more silly!!! Think about that one!
TELL THIS GUY IF HE WISHED HE HAD LISTENED TO YOU AND GOT A STRIP.

As for me, even if I loose all my hair, I know I will never look like that poor guy.

Even before I had my first FUE done, I knew it would not be enough. What I like so far is that it doesn't show that I had anything done with either long or
short hair. Maybe if I begin to loose some of my own hair at the "new" hairline, I might think differently.

Thanks for your concern. I have had about 2000 scalp hairs and about 400 body hairs done about 20 months ago. I have the same concerns as you mentioned.
That is, what is the max I can get extracted from the back of my head before I get the thinned out look.

My doc gave me a deal to go back for a session but I don't have the time presently. In the meantime, I am looking closely at the advancements that are
unfolding with FUE. Of course, besides technology advancements I still need to look at the cost.

Soon more data will be coming in about FUE, BHT, donor sealing, DEM ......(mostly from Dr Cole, Dr Arvind).
If everything turns up to be positive and if the price is right, I will have little to be concerned about.

What I haven't said is that I am hairy enough to get 2 heads done! So strip is never going to be part of my equation. NEVER!!!


So if I am careful, and maybe with some luck, I will not get FCKED UP(as you put it)!!!



  

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OptimistThu Aug-11-05 10:38 AM
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#56. "RE: My response to you.."
In response to Reply # 55
Thu Aug-11-05 10:40 AM by Optimist

          

I have had grafts placed into strip scar successfully with Dr. Gho. It was more of an experiment on my side since I was skeptical about growth in strip scar. It doesn't take a lot of grafts to break up a scar, but ofcourse to completely eliminate it must be almost impossible. As for the graft survival mentioned at being 50%. Well for those 50% the survival rate was 100%. I think the doc should document why the survival is only 50% and try to improve on it. Also I have read somewhere that chest hairs and some body hairs have deeper roots than scalp hair and thus are less prone to poor blood supply (usually found in strip scars). Maybe in a strip scar the depth of the graft should be shallower ... or deeper ... or at a more vertical angle ... All that should be investigated. Strip scars are so problematic that I think all strip HT's should be banned. The risk is simply not worth it, especially with a viable alternative out there.

  

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